A gripe about support and sample projects

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[Infragistics] Alex Fidanov replied on 06-30-2009 5:02 AM

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Hello,

I have been following this thread for quite some time and restraining myself from posting an answer. Whatever I say probably will not change your attitude towards our support (support engineers). I cannot speak for all of them, but I as one sometimes experience great difficulties in reproducing the customer's issue. Most of the time the difference in the environments has a great effect on that. A quick example - a user opens a request that states that he/she cannot set the Background of the grid. This is pretty straightforward,right? Simply setting the Background property should work and no update like "cannot reproduce the problem" from our side should be sent. However, I was not using XP, ServicePack 4, Theme -  Tiger and VS 2008 Express as apparently the customer did and were not mentioned in the description. Sometimes the cases are hard to reproduce even with a provided sample. For example:

Steps to reproduce:
1) Click on the first field 14 times, 2) Scroll horizontally 1/3 of the length 3) Click again on the first field 4) Scroll back to beginning 5) Select 4th record 6) Scroll 5 times rapidly.

Regarding issue reporting. You are developers and know that simply "Record Filtering is not working with me" is not an appropriate issue to be logged and fixed. I believe I have not taken your cases, but I have come across some that literally give no specific information on the issue. The problem has to be isolated and contained within minimum steps to reproduce and additional settings.

Regarding cases in development. They are not being closed. The case is linked to a development issue number and then they are marked as "In Development". When the issue is resolved from the Development Teams, a message is sent to the customer that the Service Release is out and the case is back "In Progress" for confirmation from the customer.

I am sorry for the inconveniences you had and the way you feel towards the Support Group. This thread keeps growing with negativism. I wonder where the happy users are :)

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informed_direct replied on 06-30-2009 7:48 AM

>but I as one sometimes experience great difficulties in reproducing the customer's issue. Most of the time the difference in the environments has a great effect on that.

I don't think that any of us would disagree with that statement. In fact, we will also possibly have great difficulty in reproducing the problem in a small standalone program due to the factors you mention.

Hence the reason being asked to do so as the standard response is the thing that annoys.

I do not know the background or technical skills required for your 1st line support team but it appears to be outsourced - will somebody please clarify or deny this? If it's outsourced to a team that are not closely involved in the NetAdvantage product suite, then we start to get to the root of the problem.

I have no problem with the concept of 1st line but I'm afraid that due to the type of product that Infragistics have decided to build their business on, the scripted/FAQ approach won't work for a large proportion of support requests.

I'm aware of the problems of suggesting this but calls need escalating to 2nd/3rd line and the conversation needs to be between the customer and the 2nd line developer/support. Not via 1st line all the time. This is putting chinese whispers in the way IMHO.

For example, my specific issue with IE8 at the moment would be far better solved by a quick email/web discussion with somebody who knows a) the inside working of WebTab and WebGrid (i.e. the developer), JavaScript and how it's changed in IE8. This, I'm sorry, is not the person I'm talking to. To be fair, I think now he's discussing it with somebody else. You do need to ring fence developers from 1st line but not completely.

>come across some that literally give no specific information on the issue. The problem has to be isolated and contained within minimum steps to reproduce and additional settings.

Agreed but in order to do that, one needs guidance from somebody who knows the inner workings of your product. Just had an example now - support has asked me about a problem with our system. Because I know the source code inside out, I could very easily (mins) suggest where to look. If this carried on, I would engage with the customer directly. This may come as a shock to the development team, i.e. to have to talk to customers :-)

>Regarding cases in development. They are not being closed. The case is linked to a development issue number and then they are marked as "In Development". When the issue is resolved from the Development Teams, a message is sent to the customer that the Service Release is out and the case is back "In Progress" for confirmation from the customer.

Once an issue gets into this state, I'm okay with it. Yes, I'd prefer a solution immediately but appreciatre that this is not logistically possible. However, I did read that IE8 compatability was of utmost priority to Infragistics.

>I wonder where the happy users are :)

Well known fact, you'll not get happy users on here/on a support forum. The only people here are those with problems.

As an aside, it would be very useful if the developers could engage a little in the forums esp. as support don't get involved.

Cheers, Rob.

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[Infragistics] Stephani replied on 06-30-2009 8:33 AM

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Hello Jonathan / All,

I am available to speak to you about your thoughts on Support.  We are always open to suggestions and comments.  It is the goal of support to assist in the most efficient way possible.  Having a sample allows us to have an isolated example, most developers can do this easily - therefore this allows us to get a resolution to you faster.  If this is not the case, we have other methods (one mentioned above).  We also are researching a tool that will come with our controls to help in this very senario. 

We take all of the feedback we are given seriously.  I have given my email in the first response that I responded to.  I am always here for you.  You can speak to me directly on your cases anytime.

In case you missed it, please email DSManager@infragistics.com.

Thank you,

Stephani Dowd

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jsenior replied on 06-30-2009 8:46 AM

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[quote user="[Infragistics] Alex Fidanov"]I am sorry for the inconveniences you had and the way you feel towards the Support Group. This thread keeps growing with negativism. I wonder where the happy users are :)[/quote]

I appreciate you jumping in on this thread and completely understand the points you raise about some support requests. However, this seems to be affecting some engineers' handling of requests where all the necessary information is provided - as if their immediate reaction is to assume that the initial request is not detailed enough without really reading it or investigating.

[quote user="[Infragistics] Alex Fidanov"]Regarding cases in development. They are not being closed.[/quote]

Well one of mine was closed: CAS-08635-9LY8EA. This was not so much a bug report but a request for Firefox support for the online documentation (the obvious problem being that there is no vertical scrollbar in the left hand pane so it's almost impossible to navigate). I mean, really, non-IE support is a massive oversight for documentation targeted at technical people who are most likely to be using less common browsers. Certainly none of the developers I work with use IE.

This request went around in circles with one inappropriate standard response after another:

Support: I was wondering if you need further assistance on this case. We have not heard back from your side for the last three days. (We'd just had two public holidays in the UK.)

Me: There's nothing else, thanks, but since the issue is not yet resolved I will keep this case open. I'll close it when your developers fix the problem.

Support: Due to the nature of competition in the technology industry, we cannot provide information on our development plans for this product. Any official information on the future of our products, if available, will be posted on our website. Please note that we highly value customer feedback and have a proven track record for delivering feature requests with every major release of our NetAdvantage toolset. (No idea why this standard reply was made.)

Support: I was wondering if you need further assistance on this case. We have not heard back from your side for the last three days.

Me: No, I think this request is going around in circles. As I keep saying, I'm just waiting for you to fix it.

... until ...

Support: I am closing this case.

Looking back at this, the associated development issue was also closed at the same time as the request. And the documentation still doesn't work properly with Firefox. Looks like it was all a waste of time.

informed_direct:

I do not know the background or technical skills required for your 1st line support team but it appears to be outsourced

I get the impression that some of it is outsourced - and this is nearly always the support I have issues with. There are certainly some very good support engineers, but these tend to be the people who answer escalated issues and seem not to be from the outsourced team.

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jsenior replied on 06-30-2009 8:52 AM

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[quote user="[Infragistics] Stephani "]I am available to speak to you about your thoughts on Support.[/quote]

Hi Stephani,

I'm sure you're aware that I've e-mailed you before about problems with Infragistics support. While you have escalated particular issues that I have mentioned and ensured that these are resolved, the tedious support process never changes.

Perhaps you will be able to make some changes based on the comments made in this thread.

Thanks,
Jon

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ustesgreenridge replied on 06-30-2009 9:14 AM

[quote user="[Infragistics] Stephani "]

 Having a sample allows us to have an isolated example, most developers can do this easily - therefore this allows us to get a resolution to you faster.  

I wish the users that I build apps for using your tools could send me a sample app each time there is a problem!!  A lot of times a barebones app will do what you want it to do.  As a priority support customer I would expect to speak to somebody very knowledgeable about the product and the different ways to use it.  I have had several support requests where I am walked thru the flow chart response, to not have my problem resolved.   I love the controls in a brand new application, but I am implementing in an existing app and support is not very helpful at times.

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[Infragistics] Stephani replied on 06-30-2009 9:17 AM

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Hi Jonathan,

Yes, we have resolved some issues for you.  If you or anyone ever has a deadline, the Developer Support Engineer can work with you on meeting that.  Our customers can attest to that.  All of our processes are made with you, (our customers) in mind. 

All feedback is taken, reviewed and acted upon.  There have been changes made based on past feedback, and we continue to listen and make changes to benefit our customer base.  One being the solution we are working on for helping you debug. 

I am happy to speak with you anytime - and can call you if you want.  We can discuss our changes and anything you have to offer.

Thanks again,

Stephani

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informed_direct replied on 06-30-2009 9:57 AM

>(No idea why this standard reply was made.)

Because it's in the script...

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informed_direct replied on 06-30-2009 10:01 AM

I get the impression that some of it is outsourced - and this is nearly always the support I have issues with. There are certainly some very good support engineers, but these tend to be the people who answer escalated issues and seem not to be from the outsourced team.

Yes, I'd concur with this. When a particularly thorny issue is made, the response is often in a different style to the previous converstations which suggests it came from somebody else and the information was just been passed on.

Cheers, Rob.

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jsenior replied on 06-30-2009 10:02 AM

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informed_direct:

>(No idea why this standard reply was made.)

Because it's in the script...

:)

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informed_direct replied on 06-30-2009 10:02 AM

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BTW - why can't you edit posts on here? One of the big advantages of forums over email/mailing lists is you can edit it when you spot a typo or mistake.

Cheers, Rob.

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informed_direct replied on 06-30-2009 10:05 AM

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>As a priority support customer I would expect to speak to somebody very knowledgeable about the product and the different ways to use it. 

Indeed. I'm not on priority support and given the response earlier, I'm not going to rush either. But this sounds like a sensible additional benefit for paying more money for support. The sad thing we're all appear to be saying here is that if one was asked that standard web survey question "Do you feel the person you spoke to understood your problem", the answer would be no.

Cheers, Rob.

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jhope replied on 06-30-2009 12:19 PM

I have also requested support on several occasions and to date, have not had a resolution or workaround. I am too busy meeting my deadlines to waste my time with a support group that doesn't give me answers. I no longer use your controls because of that.

At this office we don't have time to wait for a fix and we are not allowed to send out our code (to anyone), we need resolutions quickly as we do work on serious deadlines. Every project we undertake has a deadline and we had hoped your tools would assist in meeting those deadlines. That has not proven to be the case. As, I'm sure you know, in our industry timely and knowledgeable support, we can't justify using your tools or services.

I am the one that recommended Infragistics controls for our company and I am now recommending we not renew or agreement with Infragistics. It's faster, for us, to write my own controls than wait for a resolution from Infragistics, which often doesn't come.

Jim

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informed_direct replied on 07-02-2009 12:31 PM

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>I have duplicated your issue and will submit it for bug report review..

Time for a party!! Except a) this issue was raised on 4th April - yes, that's THREE months ago and b) I'm only at the stage I expected to be three months ago.

Cheers, Rob.

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[Infragistics] Stephani replied on 07-02-2009 1:58 PM

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Hi Rob,

This is by no means typical and should not be expected.  I have sent you seperate emails to discuss this if you wish to talk about this or anything else.

Again - you can always reach me at DSManager@infragistics.com.

Sincerely,

Stephani